Interesting IRC-Chat about the TikiWiki development model

Published on Thu 15 of Dec, 2005
[00:05:59] batawata: I think issues like this object, search, wysiwyca, etc, need a tiki2 to be solved
[00:06:32] amette: or a rethinking of tiki-development model
[00:07:03] batawata: also. imo, tiki2 should start with a version 2 of philosophy
[00:07:16] amette: That definitely!
[00:07:22] batawata: technical stuff goes after
[00:07:44] batawata: maybe we should start thinking about this now, and talk about in trollparty
[00:08:13] batawata: we'll have mose and marc together there :-)
[00:08:20] amette: Luis says: "It was started like that, it stays like that!"; Linus says: "What users do, is never wrong!" - now you decide about the development that happened in those two projects!
[00:08:39] amette: Well, I don't know, if trollparty is a better place than tikiwiki! :P
[00:08:44] batawata: when did Luis say that?
[00:08:45] amette: They are both here, too! :)
[00:09:02] mose: what luis said that ?
[00:09:05] amette: Well, ok - sorry! To make it clear! He DIDN'T say it like that!!!!!!!! 
[00:09:10] batawata: yes, that's true, but face-to-face makes a big difference
[00:09:40] amette: It was just a short-sum-up of e.g. the bitweaver-incident - to get it into one line!
[00:09:45] mose: oh, again the tiki2 syndroma, I see
[00:09:50] batawata will ask luis personally why all these and why the tikipro fork
[00:09:56] batawata: hehe
[00:10:00] amette: :)
[00:10:09] batawata: not syndroma, just thoughts :-)
[00:10:17] mose: recurrent thoughts
[00:10:35] mose: but like some other topics, no answer come from the talking
[00:11:07] batawata: well, we grow from thoughts, and more thoughts help to reach an answer :-)
[00:11:22] mose: no. in our cae only code is an answer
[00:11:42] mose: we can talk and agree on whatever about tiki2, what counts is effective coding
[00:12:00] mose: we don't talk before doing, but after
[00:12:09] batawata: yes, but we also must have talk before code, otherwise it gets like damian's tiki2
[00:12:14] mose: so, anyone can do a tiki2 and propose it
[00:12:30] mose: tikipro also was candidate to become tiki2
[00:12:56] mose: tiki2 from damian have been aborted more or less
[00:13:00] batawata: isn't it anymore?
[00:13:07] mose: no it's not anymore
[00:13:18] batawata: why's that?
[00:13:23] mose: because they choosed to disregard compatibility with tiki
[00:13:33] batawata: ah, ok
[00:13:50] mose: for design reasons that can be considered as decently serious
[00:14:36] batawata: serious design issues with tiki?
[00:16:17] mose: not exactly in tiki, but in what they wanted to make with tiki
[00:17:11] mose: anyway now the tikipro fork is another software, not a fork anymore
[00:17:22] batawata: yes
[00:18:09] batawata: but I also wonder if we also need version 2 of three rules
[00:23:07] oc_trebleganger [n=OmniColo@2907.artic.edu] hat IRC verlassen: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)
[00:23:44] amette: Well, it's a more basal underlying question, if we need v2 of 3rules....
[00:24:04] amette: ... if you see Tiki as a software, that has had it's time at some point - we surely _don't_
[00:24:25] amette: ... but if you want Tiki to evolve and still live in ten years - we surely _do_
[00:24:32] amette: I would love to hear Luis on that
[00:24:41] amette: I would like to know, how he sees Tiki.....
[00:24:47] mose: I hope in 10 years we'll have something in more than http for sharing data
[00:25:44] mose: tiki goal is not eternity
[00:25:51] amette: well, we have already - and nothing stops us from integrating other protocols into tiki, but the 3rules somehow
[00:26:11] amette: Tiki-community is no real _learning organization_ in the real meaning!
[00:26:13] mose: the 3rules is a consensual point
[00:26:18] mose: would be hard to question it
[00:26:23] amette: That's some interesting discovery actually!
[00:26:44] mose: the tiki community goal is not to educate coders
[00:26:45] amette: Because FLOSS is more or less in a wider sense about learning!
[00:26:53] mose: but to maintain and evolve a software
[00:26:56] amette: I don't say that
[00:27:13] mose: learning is a personal individual duty but can't be enforced
[00:27:19] amette: Ah, yes, maintain, right - but evolve.... 
[00:27:31] amette: learning isn't personal - learning can be organisational
[00:27:41] mose: not with adult people
[00:27:53] amette: Yes, or what do you think is CVS?
[00:28:06] mose: it's an old shit, we shoul d use svn ;)
[00:28:22] mose: and it's not a learning tool
[00:28:29] amette: Yes, we should - but it wouldn't change the general principle of organisational learning!
[00:28:37] mose: it's a common facility
[00:28:52] amette: organisational learning is any change of the knowledge base of a organisation
[00:28:58] amette: you say, that our base is the code
[00:29:04] amette: I say - we learn by CVS
[00:29:11] amette: doc.tw.o is minor
[00:29:26] mose: you individually learn by cvs
[00:29:33] amette: yes, that, too - of course
[00:29:33] mose: many others use other means
[00:29:47] amette: Tiki learns bottom up mostly!
[00:29:54] amette: Individual users/devel learn!
[00:30:00] amette: And from that the whole organisation learns!
[00:30:06] mose: they do each one his stuff
[00:30:14] amette: That's natural due to the open nature of Tiki community
[00:30:15] mose: it cannot be taken as a whole
[00:30:33] mose: it cannot be something we sync on it
[00:30:36] amette: Well, the product "Tiki" is the manifestation of us everybody learning
[00:30:43] mose: because it's too various depending the people
[00:30:45] amette: No, we don't sync - we collaborate
[00:31:18] amette: Yes, we are the next generation of learning organisations! We are a science matter, that hasn't been looked at enough, yet!
[00:31:21] mose: I don't follow the goal of your claim actually 
[00:31:46] mose: we are not an organisation
[00:31:56] mose: how could we be a learning one ?
[00:32:06] amette: Why do we then claim to be an "Open Organization"?
[00:32:21] mose: we are not an organisation, even if you add the word 'open'
[00:32:31] mose: we don't openly manage any governance system
[00:32:36] mose: we use raw consensus
[00:32:45] luciash: we ?
[00:32:48] luciash: claim ?
[00:32:48] amette: Yes, exactly - organization doesn't mean governance!
[00:32:50] luciash: :)
[00:33:08] mose: I refered to the document about open organization in tw?o because hopped it could give ideas
[00:33:12] mose: but it didn't stick
[00:33:14] batawata: what would be the goal of tiki community?
[00:33:18] amette: A group becomes an organisation by explicating rules and codifying them to agree to act by them....
[00:33:24] amette: .... are we an organisation?
[00:34:07] mose: I don't want to be in any organisation more than legally required
[00:34:29] amette: well, I stick to those rules - but it's hard, you're right, because other people don't know/follow them... you run into emptyness, when believing those rules too much
[00:34:46] amette: ok, then you can agree on my definition of organisation
[00:34:48] mose: the goal of the tikiwiki community is the sum (or the overall result) of the uindividual goals of tiki users and (more visibly) coders
[00:35:00] amette: organised by 3rules
[00:35:14] mose: yes, rules are reduced to the maximum reduction possible
[00:35:22] mose: onelined
[00:35:27] amette: yup, yup
[00:35:34] mose: on that we can stick
[00:35:44] batawata just read big log
[00:35:58] amette: yes, exactly - and that's the thing - those rules make us an organisation
[00:36:10] amette: don't prejudice - it's nothing pyramidal - it's nothing bad
[00:36:13] amette: it's just a fact
[00:36:17] amette: organisation is no bad word
[00:36:26] mose: good
[00:36:28] amette: and to drop that organisation thingy
[00:36:32] batawata: learning can't be enforced, but we can have a learning environment in software development process with no enforcement
[00:36:44] mose: do it :)
[00:36:53] amette: those 3rules forbid this 'organisation' to unlearn
[00:36:54] batawata: organization is similar to organism, it might be good :-)
[00:36:57] mose: building a learning environment is work
[00:37:09] batawata: yes, it is work
[00:37:15] amette: oh, batawata - we have a learning environment - and one of the best actually!! That's one of the reasons I joined here!!
[00:37:19] luciash: batawata: these are the goals: http://doc.tikiwiki.org/tiki-index.php?page_ref_id=2717 :p
[00:37:21] H0ney: Title: TikiWiki Documentation : d.tw.o : Cíle (at doc.tikiwiki.org)
[00:37:33] amette: But this environment has one problem: It doesn't allow collective unlearning!
[00:37:41] amette: &whatis 3rules
[00:37:41] H0ney: amette: '3rules' could be (#1) the ruleset of Tikiwiki development : 1/ preserve environement 2/ commit early, commit often 3/ make it optional, or (#2) http://tikiwiki.org/3Rules
[00:37:54] amette: 1/ preserve environement 
[00:37:56] mose: the learning is an effeect of tikiwiki community, not a cause
[00:38:08] amette: we don't kill code - we can't unlearn
[00:38:09] amette: that easy
[00:38:23] amette: unlearning is necessary for learning new things
[00:38:30] amette: or do you still burn witches?
[00:38:35] batawata: I do have the learning as a cause in someway, because that's the way for software evolving
[00:39:00] batawata: and also the learning as a greater cause but that's personal :-)
[00:39:36] aholmes [n=Aria@toronto-HSE-ppp4268991.sympatico.ca] hat IRC verlassen: Connection timed out
[00:39:58] luciash: well, that was in czech ;-p here's better link: http://doc.tikiwiki.org/tiki-index.php?page=Goals
[00:40:01] mose wonders what witches he's burning
[00:40:02] H0ney: Title: TikiWiki Documentation : d.tw.o : Goals (at doc.tikiwiki.org)
[00:40:51] amette: well, here in germany we burnt witches during medieval times - I guess you did, too
[00:41:05] hotte [i=auftrags@dslb-084-057-012-049.pools.arcor-ip.net] hat IRC verlassen: Connection timed out
[00:41:57] mose: witches hunt refers also to more recent macartism in usa
[00:42:33] mose: but I don't feel I'm in that type of position
[00:42:35] amette: If we wouldn't have un-learned to burn witches - we couldn't today have women as neighbours, who have black cats! That's the essence of organisational unlearning!
[00:42:57] amette: And I have a neighbour with a black cat - and she's nice! :)
[00:43:22] mose: racism about cats is long time gone :)
[00:43:31] mose: but it still persists about human beings
[00:43:35] amette: Yes, because it was unlearned! :)
[00:43:51] mose: is racism a knowledge you have to learn ?
[00:43:56] amette: Yes, it is!
[00:44:07] amette: At least I don't believe, that you have it by nature!
[00:44:11] mose: maybe I'm confused by your use of the word 'learn' as I am by your word 'organisation'
[00:44:31] mose: fear of the unknown is inate
[00:44:32] amette: If you grew up in Southern Africa twenty years ago - you surely had another thinking about racism as here in europe
[00:45:00] amette: Well, as I said: "Organisational learning is _ANY_ change of organisational knowledge base!"
[00:45:08] amette: So, if someone commits to CVS - that's learning!
[00:45:21] amette: If someone says something here on IRC - that's learning!
[00:45:41] mose: okay okay. now can you please say clearly what is your statement ?
[00:45:54] mose: what is link to tiki2 ?
[00:45:56] amette: If no-one reads it, then for that person him/herself (it perhaps triggers new thoughts) - if someone reads it, yes, it triggers defnitely new thoughts
[00:46:01] mose: and with 3rules ?
[00:46:08] amette: ok, kewl, good.....
[00:46:34] mose: in short : what is wrong ?
[00:47:07] amette: Ah, even better! Ok, wrong is: 3rules don't allow organisational unlearning - so it is no sustainable development environment - full stop
[00:47:23] mose: what can you propose to enhance it ?
[00:47:39] mose: I don't really see what you refer to, but you probably have a fix ?
[00:47:56] amette: What I can propose without breaking 3rules would be: refactor _extremely_!!
[00:48:05] mose: try it
[00:48:13] mose: then we knwow what we takl about
[00:48:34] mose: nothing is holy, except shit when it happens
[00:48:57] amette: Another possibility is to create an interpretation of "preserve environment", that allows 'code-unlearning' - but that's tricky - and philosophically questionable!
[00:49:37] mose: would people not wishing to learn be excluded ?
[00:50:03] mose: what is the central opinion that people should learn ? who specifies it ?
[00:50:06] amette: No, people not wishing to learn, learn anyways - they can't do anything against it as long as they are part of the community!
[00:50:21] mose: so why do we need a rule if it's done naturaly ?
[00:51:04] amette: Well, you can argue about that rule....
[00:51:18] amette: ... I can't say why Luis created it (did he create it?)
[00:51:29] mose: no
[00:51:33] mose: he did create the code
[00:51:36] mose: I did create the rules
[00:51:52] mose: and I can tell you why if you want
[00:51:55] amette: ... but generally in such an environment you need rules to make people work towards one goal
[00:52:04] amette: yes, please
[00:52:30] mose: I created the 3 rules to be able to shortly inform new members about some key principles
[00:52:48] mose: quickly and linking it to the free software culture
[00:53:02] mose: by the reference to te second rule
[00:53:13] mose: actually at the begninning there was only 2
[00:53:22] mose: I added the 3rd after some practice
[00:53:25] amette: Yup, make people work towards one goal - how abstract it might ever be!
[00:53:37] amette: Ah - I always wondered - because the 3rd is redundant! :)
[00:53:42] mose: then as I was the main active recruiter, that online became a 'rule'
[00:54:01] mose: I added the 3rd one because people didn't see it clearly as a consequence of the forst
[00:54:12] amette: Yes, I can believe that
[00:54:28] mose: so the rules are not the prduct of a common reflexion
[00:54:40] mose: it's my own personnal habit that became sortof appropriated
[00:55:11] amette: And they are very good! It took me almost a year to find the 'weak' point in them!
[00:55:27] amette: Really excellent rules are made by 'common reflexion' as you said!
[00:55:44] amette: Our 3rules are excellent, too - but for a certain cause.... ;)
[00:56:13] amette: ... they are not for an evolving software, that has the potential ability to last forever.
[00:56:40] mose: the 'forever' word is not in my vocabulary
[00:56:57] mose: I don't think tiki is eternal
[00:57:05] amette: killer-phrases slip easily of you this evening
[00:57:20] mose: I'm not sure it can evolve the way you say io the setting of its community
[00:57:25] mose: that's what I mean
[00:57:48] amette: Well, I can't have a 'solution' (if that's ever looked for)...
[00:58:08] amette: ... I just can say, what's the situation... and I can say, what could be different - and what potential that could have...
[00:58:26] amette: .. I have thought a lot about that (also as a talk at trollparty ;) )....
[00:58:49] mose: without real proposal it sounds like 'imagine if the sky was green'
[00:58:50] amette: ... so, we can discuss that a lot - it's just the question: "How easily can 3rules be changed?"
[00:59:26] amette: Well, I'm not the guy to "really propose" - I'm the guy to tell stuff and ask people for opinions - I'm the guy to trigger conversations...
[00:59:40] amette: .. I'm the guy to trigger meta-evolution ;)
[00:59:57] amette: I believe in the community doing decisions!
[01:00:01] mose: trigger ok, but you need powder and a bullet as well
[01:00:17] mose: cmomunity don't do decision
[01:00:22] mose: that's my point
[01:00:35] mose: individual do decision, not the community
[01:00:42] mose: the community tried
[01:00:48] mose: but faileed
[01:00:52] mose: in many occasions
[01:00:57] loick [n=loick@APuteaux-151-1-74-135.w83-204.abo.wanadoo.fr] hat IRC verlassen: "Trillian (http://www.ceruleanstudios.com"
[01:01:00] mose: to take decision before action
[01:01:02] amette: Well, the bullet is: "Rule 1 kills!" - powder is: "Any CVS commmit that projects rule 1 further towards Tiki-stagnation."
[01:01:44] amette: Of course - individuals do decisions! But a community is a bunch of individuals!
[01:01:44] mose: I think that tiki won't eveolve without a rewriting
[01:01:55] mose: in the way you talk about evolution
[01:02:17] mose: and rewriting is not possible collectively
[01:02:20] amette: Well, Tiki could evolve - why node - code is life - you think that way as well as me - life can evolve
[01:02:30] amette: s/node/not
[01:02:45] mose: it's an author work that requires a consistency than a group can't achieve before years of mutual experience in a very productive context
[01:02:58] luciash: imho in tiki everything was evolved just by commiting individual code and acccepting it by others
[01:03:02] mose: and it's not exactly what our ground is
[01:03:23] amette: luciash is right - we have just a bunch of individual code working together!
[01:03:31] luciash: that's the way how tikiwiki works
[01:03:34] amette: And that's fascinating - that's why I love tiki!
[01:03:44] mose: yup, and each one has his own perosnaly reasons
[01:04:06] amette: I just dislike, that we only can add - that we have a metal-ball at our legs, that keeps us from running...
[01:04:21] mose: true, there is inertia
[01:04:30] superniemand [n=supernie@DSL01.] hat IRC verlassen: "Quit und weg"
[01:04:30] mose: because the environment is big
[01:04:35] amette: ... real evolution can only happen, when stuff dies - sad, but true
[01:04:43] mose: exact
[01:04:51] mose: death is in the cycle of life
[01:04:53] amette: and rule1 prohibits stuff from dying
[01:05:06] mose: under the present shape, yes
[01:05:14] mose: it's why people invest in it
[01:05:19] luciash: you can change too but without breaking compatibility
[01:05:35] amette: so - conclusion of my tiki-talk: Three rules are made to make Tiki a software that has a certain lifespan and dies after that!
[01:05:44] mose: yes
[01:05:48] mose: indeed
[01:05:53] amette: :)
[01:06:01] mose: and it's not secret
[01:06:12] amette: no, but it's not official either ;)
[01:06:16] mose: the death step will be crucial
[01:06:27] mose: nothing is offical :)
[01:06:38] mose: we have no delegation system
[01:06:52] amette would rather like to see _real_ evolution - in which Tiki fights and starves for living instead of being in a cage doomed to die
[01:07:07] mose: it's not in a cage
[01:07:07] luciash: imho the death will come after 1.10 will be released (if ever) ;)
[01:07:30] mose: luciash : that's fairly possible
[01:07:42] damian: Interesting communications :)
[01:07:45] mose: but not certain
[01:07:49] amette: It's in the cage of 'not-unlearning'..
[01:07:54] amette: .. it's not completely free
[01:07:58] luciash: sure it's not certain
[01:08:05] mose: it has a defined context
[01:08:18] amette: aaah - walking on the edge
[01:08:39] amette: A defined context is: "Web-application"
[01:08:52] mose: used by tousands of people already
[01:08:58] amette: doesn't matter
[01:09:06] mose: that don't want to change software each year
[01:09:29] mose: and as they have some garantee about environemental respect with the ruleset, they involve in it
[01:09:30] amette: They don't have to
[01:09:43] amette: Well, that is true - yes!!
[01:09:49] luciash: but on the other side: i've seen the 3rules as a try to keep that monster living as long as possible
[01:09:56] mose: as the users are a part of the environment
[01:10:37] mose: the goal in tikiwiki community was to open it the more widely possible
[01:10:58] amette: Yes, and that goal was very much reached - in a developer context!
[01:11:13] amette: It's hard for me to speak about users - if not impossible!
[01:11:13] mose: my interest in tiki is in the community, the code is crap
[01:11:26] mose: I never coded something like tiki is coded
[01:11:32] amette: Tiki is really widely used - but people often stick with 1.6 installations and the like... so...
[01:11:45] mose: no that's false
[01:11:53] mose: I had stats on that
[01:12:21] mose looks for them
[01:12:34] damian: being honest the code in 1.9 and the upcoming 1.10 is total cow splats compared to 1.8 and 1.7
[01:12:51] damian: some of the more recent commits really have no sense to them
[01:13:15] damian: its why Im so bored of fighting for tiki's life in some respects
[01:13:35] amette: hmmm......
[01:14:22] oc_trebleganger [n=OmniColo@2907.artic.edu] hat #tikiwiki betreten
[01:14:24] amette has a smoke break - brb
[01:14:44] damian: the biggest issue I have is people making big changes to big libraries and huge areas of code, when they dont actually have a tikiwiki site (dev sites are not counted, they are just local playgrounds)
[01:15:25] damian: people need to use Tiki, to understand it, to be able to code within it
[01:15:35] mose: http://sec.tikiwiki.org/watch/version_stats_20050307.txt
[01:19:57] luciash [n=luciash@tikiwiki/luciash] hat IRC verlassen: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)
[01:21:56] Deben [n=chatzill@] hat #tikiwiki betreten
[01:23:10] amette: Those stats would be interesting for the current time - they fall into a certain whole - where 1.9 wasn't really really released - but it's good to see, that 1.6 was pretty abandoned then
[01:23:18] amette: s/whole/hole
[01:23:50] luci: yup
[01:27:21] amette thinks, that TikiWiki-community is a development-model, that has earned a place in scientific (mostly social-sciencies) studies - and additionally: two years is a huge timeframe to learn from it!
[01:28:11] luci: your studies ? ;)
[01:28:19] amette: batawata has had some very similar thoughts than me.... it would be interesting to implement deutero-learning (learningn to learn better) into that social concept, that Tiki is
[01:28:35] amette: Well, yes, luci, I have been thinking about that! :)

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Born, went to school, started hacking on free software, did some major high availability sysadmin work in between, now back to my original passion: managing knowledge. :) -- Long CV

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