Digital Sins revisited

In the bootstrapping of the trollparty there were already some interesting discussions on #trollparty. One of them was with qopi aka Josef Davies-Coates.

Sorry, I'm missing the IRC-log, that started all that. KVirc starts a new log every day and it seems, that the one of 14.12.2005 got lost. But let me see, what I can extract from the log of 15.12.2005... ;)

[00:09:31] qopi opened an account on delirious ages ago
[00:10:18] <qopi> but delicious has always had a considerable edge in terms of both usability and users
[00:11:00] <amette> yeah, right, just as Windows
[00:11:23] <qopi> I've never looks myself (because I wouldn't know what I was looking at) but all the coders I know say that it is a pretty poorly coded piece of software
[00:11:49] <amette> what? de.lirio.us ?
[00:11:52] <qopi> yes, in some ways like how windows was still better than 2 linux on the desktop a couple of years ago
[00:12:29] <qopi> yes, delirious, lots of open source people I know have said that they don't actually think much of delirious, which is a shame
[00:12:40] <qopi> have you seen fraggle?
[00:13:36] <r1> http://www.londonist.com/image/fraggle.jpg ? :)
[00:13:55] <amette> Well, IMHO we need an OpenSource delicious quickly! It's the power of information-organization of this afternoon! (ontologoy is tomorrow)
[00:14:09] <amette> and saying: it's poorly coded - I go with proprietary.........................................
[00:14:42] mose is looking at delirious code and understands
[00:15:47] qopi meant frassle
[00:16:01] <qopi> http://frassle.net/
[00:16:05] <H0ney> Title: Home - frassle (at frassle.net)
[00:16:26] <qopi> that looked quite interesting
[00:17:15] <amette> Well, delirious is OpenSource - WTF - code some better! The data-format is OpenSource! The interface to it is OpenSource! Once there is a better system - migrate the delirious data!! You won't have it that easily with delicious - I promise!
[00:17:33] <amette> The code might be bad - but underlying is something much more severe than just code!
[00:17:43] <amette> So put the data into the bad code that handles it!

So, amette is going some ranting-course here. Still reasonable, but already going toward ranting.. some people recognise and start trolling... ;)

[00:17:44] <mose> do it :)
[00:18:04] <amette> You won't die from it - but you are free to get your data back in a clean way!
[00:18:11] <r1> amette: yeah good idea !!! do it :)
[00:18:19] <mose> I vote amette do it
[00:18:22] <amette> mose : I am doing that! With bata in Tiki! But we all now, that Tiki can't handle that!
[00:18:26] <r1> me too :)
[00:18:43] <amette> Great - I have people voting for me! :)
[00:18:57] <r1> mose: amette is saying that tiki sucks !!! :)
[00:19:02] <amette> I never wanted that - but they do it! That's a cool feeling! :)
[00:19:03] <qopi> amette: i can easily export and/or mirror my delicious data
[00:19:07] <mose> well, it does
[00:19:17] <r1> recode it !!!
[00:19:21] <r1> yeah do it :)
[00:19:24] <amette> r1 : join 
[00:19:32] <amette> join #tikiwiki - mose just blocks that ;)
[00:19:47] <r1> mouarf :)
[00:19:48] <mose> what do you pretend I block ?
[00:20:05] <r1> yeah !!! I have launched a big troll :) !!

Well, discussion gets funny - but outta control. r1 is right, big troll! ;)

[01:44:13] <qopi> amette: imho we need an open source ebay and google more than we need an open source delicious ;)
[01:44:43] <mose> +1
[01:44:55] <qopi> (ebay including paypal and skype, of course)
[01:45:04] <mose> and skype and googlemap
[01:45:16] <qopi> and google *
[01:45:29] <qopi> http://labs.google.com
[01:45:31] <H0ney> Title: Google Labs (at labs.google.com)
[01:45:42] <qopi> we need all that :P
[01:45:55] <niclone> +2
[01:46:13] <mose> btw, we now have a contact with some executive in vive TV
[01:46:39] <mose> in paris there is a meeting on 19th dec
[01:46:51] <qopi> and maybe if we could clearly explain the power and public benefit of such a system to the world-wide co-operative movement...
[01:46:55] <mose> with authors of http://www.vive.gob.ve/videos_prog.php?id=16&p=Documentales&url=doc_pasoandes1.swf
[01:47:04] <qopi> mose: great news :)
[01:47:51] <amette> qopi : open source google is worked upon as well as open source ebay - they are just not as well developed as open source delicious - delirious is usable, the other stuff isn't - so why not use it?
[01:48:36] <qopi> because just because it is open source doesn't mean it is worth using
[01:48:48] <amette> yes, exactly that _does_ mean it!
[01:49:14] <qopi> often it does, not always
[01:49:40] <amette> No, always! It's mostly just personal lazyness, that makes you use proprietary tools!
[01:49:54] <qopi> jejeje
[01:50:00] <amette> People don't use Linux because: "Aah, stuff doesn't work!"
[01:50:10] <amette> "But I believe in freedom! Yes!"
[01:50:12] <amette> Pfffff............
[01:50:21] <mose> I do
[01:50:30] <amette> me, too
[01:50:31] <qopi> "People don't use Linux because: "Aah, stuff doesn't work!" exactly
[01:50:38] <mose> I have quit all my former skills for ideological reasons
[01:50:46] <r1> +3

Yes, we all don't use stuff, because 'it don't work'... :-/
But well, how aware are we of the consequences...?

[01:50:46] <amette> Yes, and stuff won't work, if the critical mass isn't reached
[01:50:59] <mose> but that's not a choice that can be proposed. it only can be taken
[01:51:11] <amette> Yes, exactly - it can only be taken...
[01:51:21] <amette> ... I can _offer_ it - but not propose
[01:51:54] <mose> s/offer/demonstrate/
[01:52:05] <amette> "People are intelligent!" - "No, one guy is intelligent - _people_ are a big, huge mass of stupid creatures!"
[01:52:34] <amette> I do both - I demonstrate and offer
[01:52:37] <qopi> no, collective intelligence is more powerful the any one guy :P
[01:52:44] <qopi> s/the/than
[01:53:09] <amette> Yes, but you don't get collective intelligence, when some people hold on to centralized systems.
[01:53:27] <qopi> depends
[01:53:34] <amette> ???
[01:53:41] <qopi> to take delicious, since you mentioned it
[01:54:30] <acracia> i think we missed the point, because when we choose free software, at least me, it's because we think about it as a mean of production and as a big transformer into people's lifes. not because it's better technically
[01:55:00] <amette> go on, qopi - I'm eager to see, how you get to the long-term benefit of using a closed source social-bookmarking-service.....
[01:55:00] <acracia> i mean, software is a big thing. there are better softs on propietary software on some fields
[01:55:02] <qopi> while it is centralized, the reason it has worked so well is because it joshua listened to what people said and was responsive to his community of users
[01:55:04] <mose> free software is not just about software
[01:55:06] <acracia> and free ones on others
[01:55:12] <mose> it's about freedom

Oh, oh, oh - did we reach the goal?! - Freedom?

[01:55:30] <qopi> lots of open sources projects are open, which I think is far more ethical, but also less responsive

Ok, about that I gotta have some very personal talk with him!!!

[01:56:02] <qopi> of course, this isn't always true, and as a genral rule most open source projects *are* much more responsive to feekback
[01:58:29] <amette> Yes, it's about freedom! mose said it! And that is a much wider word, than most people recognize! Decentralisation is another thing, that plays a role here! delirious isn't perfect either! In the long term I work for Tikis communicating with each other - representing true virtual projection of real life! delirious can't do that despite being open source! It's not distributed!
[01:58:54] <amette> But delirious is the better choice than delicious! Because it is open source!
[01:59:03] <amette> You get more freedom from it!
[01:59:23] <qopi> amette: I agree, we need a totally distributed alternative
[01:59:38] <qopi> amette: like you say, freedom is a wide word
[01:59:03] <amette> You get more freedom from it!
[01:59:23] <qopi> amette: I agree, we need a totally distributed alternative

Really coming to some consensus here...

[01:59:38] <qopi> amette: like you say, freedom is a wide word
[01:59:46] <mose> like the web2.0 project 
[01:59:56] <mose> or 'idea'
[02:00:04] <amette> The semantic net - the next, needed, step in the evolution of the internet - do you think, it should be handleded by one instance? No! (As I now already see from your comments ;) )
[02:00:07] <mose> I'm still wondering what it is
[02:00:22] <amette> But as far as we can go already now - we should go!!
[02:00:36] <amette> And that also means: Use delirious in favour of delicious!
[02:00:42] <amette> No matter how bad the code is!
[02:00:44] <qopi> i find that the collective intelligence I can extract from delicious (due to its critcal mass of users, like you mentioned) also greatly increases my capabilities of improving my freedom
[02:01:14] <amette> qopi : Yes, that it does! Absolutely! Without any question!
[02:01:44] <amette> But your personal lazyness keeps you from taking the next step - the step to the same concept on an open infrastucture!
[02:01:55] <amette> And that step gives you long term freedom!
[02:01:58] <qopi> and to me, on balance, that outweighs the bit of freedom I would get by switching to delirious


[02:02:14] <amette> It's a strategic choice...
[02:02:26] <qopi> amette: bear in mind that on a day to day basis I've only used linux for about 2 years :)
[02:02:27] <mose> a personal one
[02:02:52] <amette> qopi : Bear in mind, that I only used free software for about 2 years
[02:03:09] <amette> I refused to sign up with proprietary services other than testing!
[02:03:20] <qopi> and I've distributed 100s of copies of ubuntu and theopencd etc too :P
[02:03:29] <qopi> amette: good for you! :P
[02:03:30] <amette> Yes, I have a google-mail account - because I wanted to see the technology - but I don't use it!
[02:03:37] <qopi> likewise
[02:03:37] <amette> qopi : Good for you, too!!

And here I missed the Killer-argument - and this killer-argument really pursued me some nights in my dreams! Good for you - yeah, right! But really killer it only gets, when you say, for whom it is good, too! It's good, because you very unselfishly get people out of the lock-in... it's good for him, too! ;)

[02:03:52] <qopi> amette: bet you use google though don't you?

Damnit!! - He got me, he really got me!!! :P

[02:03:52] <amette> Don't you guys understadn network-effects?!?!?

Veeery desperate try to get out of that.... ;)

[02:04:04] <amette> qopi : Yes, that's my last sin! I admit!

Ok, that's the thing, I wanted to go for with this whole blog-post.....

[02:04:14] <qopi> are you vegan?
[02:04:16] <mose> your presomption on what we undestrand is hazardeous amette
[02:04:24] <amette> Nope, I eat flesh! :)
[02:04:30] <qopi> do you only purchase ethical goods?
[02:04:41] <qopi> what is your fossil fuel consumption?
[02:05:15] <amette> qopi : Well, ethical goods - that's a tricky question... I use computer hardware - they are often made by people who suffer from doing it...
[02:05:24] <amette> .. I don't consume fuel at all..
[02:05:36] <qopi> that is nonsense

Ok, conversation ended here.....

[02:05:41] <qopi> you would be dead
[02:05:46] <amette> .. but it's still a different thing with material and immaterial goods!
[02:05:53] <mose> stop trolling, that can be endless
[02:06:04] <amette> Aren't we on a trollparty? ;)
[02:06:08] <qopi> but mose, this is a trollparty!

Hmmm, perhaps not.... the two main guys understand each other... ;)

Well, whatever - mose diffused that discussion after that... it just disappeared.

I want to revive it - right here - right NOW!

I am not the digital saint! I found at least two digital sins in the last week. They just appeared out of nowhere. I didn't even really know about them. I have been thinking about them... yes...!! But I didn't really realize them!

  1. http://www.google.com
  2. http://www.ebay.com
  3. http://www.imdb.com
  4. http://www.last.fm

The last one you can even see in the right column of my web-site... :-/

Yes, people get blind just by using this stuff...
.. am I good because I noticed it - or am I good because I am a bad example..?

Am I good...... - at all...?

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Born, went to school, started hacking on free software, did some major high availability sysadmin work in between, now back to my original passion: managing knowledge. :) -- Long CV

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